The Next Million Dollar Copywriter Live Hangout with Brian Kurtz and Kevin Rogers

This epic live summit sought to help direct response copywriters and companies discover better ways to work together. Add your voice to the conversation using the comments section.

Chat Log:
[00:00:00 – chat] Kevin Rogers: Welcome! We will start in a few minutes…
[00:00:00 – chat] Kevin Rogers: If you’d like to speak, please add a comment here with your full name and “speaker”
[00:00:00 – chat] ANDY WILSON!: WAT UP
[00:00:00 – chat] Dean: Helloooo
[00:00:00 – chat] Ben Hunt: Hi everyone.
[00:00:00 – chat] Alan: sitting tight
[00:00:00 – chat] Brian: Howdy
[00:00:00 – chat] larry: hey
[00:00:00 – chat] Robert: Hello everyone!
[00:00:00 – chat] Michel: Hi
[00:00:00 – chat] Jonathan: G’day!
[00:00:00 – chat] Lauren: Hey!
[00:00:00 – chat] Tim: Hi, all…
[00:00:00 – chat] Carlos: Excited for this!
[00:00:00 – chat] Alan: present
[00:00:00 – chat] Drew: Morning (afternoon) all
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: Heelllloooooo!
[00:00:00 – chat] Mary Rose: Hello from Cbus Ohio!
[00:00:00 – chat] Jeffrey: Word…
[00:00:00 – chat] larry: woohooo from singapore
[00:00:00 – chat] Zoran: Hey hey
[00:00:00 – chat] Dean: 12am here
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: GOOD MORNING VIETNAM!
[00:00:00 – chat] Casey: What up
[00:00:00 – chat] Abbey: hi hi
[00:00:00 – chat] Mark: I hope most of you are writing while you listen;-)
[00:00:00 – chat] Barry: Hello
[00:00:00 – chat] Girish: Hi
[00:00:00 – chat] Cyndee: Oooo Singapore…I used to live in Malaysia!
[00:00:00 – chat] Scott: Hello from Charlotte NC
[00:00:00 – chat] Catherine: Hello everyone. It’s noon here.
[00:00:00 – chat] larry: its hot here
[00:00:00 – chat] leigh: Hello from layover in Hong Kong!
[00:00:00 – chat] Lynn: Hey guys!
[00:00:00 – chat] Dean: Hello from Brunei DArussalam
[00:00:00 – chat] Damon: Hellooooo from the UK
[00:00:00 – chat] Tony: Hello from Chicago
[00:00:00 – chat] Ellis: Hi from california
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: Hello from Brighton UK… officially the sunniest place in Brighton, UK
[00:00:00 – chat] John Belkewitch: Hello, everybody… (New Jersey in the house)
[00:00:00 – chat] Alan: NYC area
[00:00:00 – chat] Ben Hunt: Hi Jody. I’m in Derbyshire.
[00:00:00 – chat] Tim: Hello from Boston
[00:00:00 – chat] Kim: Kim from Maryland is here! Hello everyone
[00:00:00 – chat] Lauren: New York City
[00:00:00 – chat] Melissa: Hi from Texas!
[00:00:00 – chat] Lisa: Hello from Kansas!
[00:00:00 – chat] Amy: Hello from North Carolina
[00:00:00 – chat] Neil: Hey! from Iowa
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: Where in Derbyshire, Ben?
[00:00:00 – chat] Alan: Jody, can you see the Ilse of Wight from Brighton?
[00:00:00 – chat] Brian: Colorado
[00:00:00 – chat] Peter Michaels: North London representin!
[00:00:00 – chat] Casey: 3 minutes late… Better start with Kevin freestyle rapping about copy.
[00:00:00 – chat] Jeremy: Yooo! Also from Texas
[00:00:00 – chat] Tommy: Tampa Florida
[00:00:00 – chat] Lee: Hello All, Lee Bellinger in SC
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: I can Alan.. but I try to avoid as much as possible
[00:00:00 – chat] Cezary : Hi everyone (Poland is here too).
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: Camden MASSIVE, Peter Michaels
[00:00:00 – chat] Lauren: hey cezary
[00:00:00 – chat] Alan: ah
[00:00:00 – chat] Peter Michaels: JR! You betcha Haywards Heath ; )
[00:00:00 – chat] Tracy: Howdy, from Texas
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: It’s just called Da Heath, Peter
[00:00:00 – chat] Elin: Hiya from Bend Oregon!
[00:00:00 – chat] Cezary : Hey, Lauren 🙂
[00:00:00 – chat] Ben Hunt: Jody, I’m at the very northmost bit, Eckington, just south of Sheffield. J30
[00:00:00 – chat] Eric: Hello all
[00:00:00 – chat] Russell: good morning everyone
[00:00:00 – chat] Melanie: Hi everyone!
[00:00:00 – chat] Elin: There’s no sound yet, right?
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: Just thinking about that gives me a nosebleed, Ben
[00:00:00 – chat] Barry: Hello from New Jersey
[00:00:00 – chat] Mark: Ashland Oregon in DA HOUSE
[00:00:00 – chat] laura: Hello!
[00:00:00 – chat] Scott: Heywards Heaf? Blimey!
[00:00:00 – chat] Alan: starting soon??
[00:00:00 – chat] Copy Chief Admin: Howdy folks!
[00:00:00 – chat] Jody: ‘Aywards ‘Eaf
[00:00:00 – chat] Christy: Hello!
[00:00:04 – chat] Amanda: Hello! I’m stoked for this forum; I think it’s going to be great!
[00:00:06 – chat] Jody: Wow, what a great insight to kick off with guys
[00:00:08 – chat] Mary Rose: Woohoo!
[00:00:11 – chat] Amy: Wow, Ben Hunt is here
[00:00:22 – chat] Jody: Agree
[00:00:23 – chat] melvin: hello
[00:00:26 – chat] Casey: Get your popcorn!
[00:00:28 – chat] Alan: Hey Mary Rose…you are everywhere!
[00:00:39 – chat] Mary Rose: So are you, Alan! 🙂
[00:01:27 – chat] Dean: Howdy!
[00:02:11 – chat] Shane: Hey Brian and Kevin ..good to see you both
[00:02:38 – chat] Brad: Arrived late, what did I miss. Sent you an infographic.
[00:02:55 – chat] Cyndee: Just an introduction Brad
[00:03:09 – chat] Gerald: Nice poster
[00:03:22 – chat] Angie Colee: Nice posters LOL.
[00:03:34 – chat] Russell: No sides, trying to create a partnership right?
[00:05:56 – chat] Zoran: This reminds me of the appearance of Growth Hacking
[00:06:03 – chat] Barbara: Hey gang…especially hello to my old pal, Brian K.
[00:07:20 – chat] Jody: Ross is secretary!
[00:07:34 – chat] Jody: Love it.
[00:07:39 – chat] Lynn: thats badass
[00:07:48 – chat] John Belkewitch: Ross The Boss
[00:07:49 – chat] Angie Colee: That’s not nice, Jody. 😛
[00:08:03 – chat] Gerald: vv Secretary of State
[00:08:55 – chat] Angie Colee: being a creative employee ain’t all THAT bad
[00:08:58 – chat] Angie Colee: Team is everything 😉
[00:09:49 – chat] Russell: Well, we are currently looking to find someone long term and would love to discuss challenges and opportunities
[00:10:16 – chat] Russell: let me jump on laptop with cam
[00:10:31 – chat] Mark: Angie!
[00:10:35 – chat] Angie Colee: < — in-house senior copywriter at the moment
[00:10:43 – chat] Manju: Hi,Good wishes to all
[00:10:48 – chat] Scott: Scott Martin. Copywriter. I believe I have something to add.
[00:10:51 – chat] Abbey: It’s fun to work with a client you love on a fullish time basis
[00:10:55 – chat] Abbey: no more chasing clients
[00:11:28 – chat] Mark: Every copywriter should WANT more successes in their portfolio. And we’re definitely entering the age where copywriters ARE accountable for their work. And need to step up to the plate and adjust… until a piece converts.
[00:11:44 – chat] Manju: It’s nearing 10 pm here in India
[00:12:02 – chat] Angie Colee: The projects I’ve been able to pitch and own have been pretty awesome.
[00:12:11 – chat] Jody: As a DR copywriter, I WANT to be accountable for my work. I want my clients to come back to me and share the results. IF they’re great, let’s celebrate. If not, I want to work with them. I want my work to work.
[00:12:14 – chat] Michel Fortin: You’re only as good as your next success.
[00:12:19 – chat] Craig: the education and immersion value of working in-house at a great firm, is priceless, imo. Great paid to become great. – Craig Clemens
[00:12:25 – chat] Manju: Wonderful Angie
[00:12:40 – chat] Angie Colee: *high fives Craig* Amen
[00:12:46 – chat] Mark: Exactly Jody
[00:12:51 – chat] Demetrio: I feel the same way. I always stay until the copy converts.
[00:12:56 – chat] Abbey: WHen you have a full-time client like that, there’s so many perks that you don’t get being a “hired gun”
[00:13:58 – chat] Jody: I would ABSOLUTELY love it, if clients came back to me after a while and said ‘hey’ this isn’t converting as well any more – how about we work together and fix it?
[00:14:09 – chat] Kathi: I agree with Jody. I want my work to work. And I work to make it work.
[00:14:32 – chat] Cyndee: Love that Jody
[00:14:42 – chat] Dean: I find myself following up with my clients to see how the copy converts…they rarely reach
[00:14:47 – chat] Dean: out to me first
[00:14:49 – chat] Lynn: I agree with Jody there
[00:15:07 – chat] Demetrio: Jody is on point.
[00:15:07 – chat] Amy: Are copywriters just turning into a Marketing Director but without the degree and coming from a different angle?
[00:15:27 – chat] Russell: in this day and age is it that much of a problem though?
[00:15:32 – chat] Russell: we have people around the world
[00:15:42 – chat] Angie Colee: Amy – I know I don’t have a degree in marketing.
[00:15:51 – chat] Kathi: I also like it when I have a control that gets beaten. That gives me the opportunity to see what they did — how they upped the ante — so I can build on that success and beat them next time.
[00:16:09 – chat] Abbey: Abbey Woodcock — I could add to being a “full time-ish” copywriter.
[00:16:46 – chat] Abbey: yeah! journalist turned copywriter, too 🙂
[00:17:15 – chat] Amy: Another question to ask yourself is are you an entrepreneur or and employee? Decide what you want.
[00:17:18 – chat] Russell: yes exactly
[00:17:26 – chat] Russell: not beholden, but committed
[00:17:45 – chat] Lynn: The feedback allows us to improve, too
[00:17:52 – chat] Dean: Brian made this exact point on the podcast…copywriters want
[00:17:55 – chat] Dean: the validation
[00:18:08 – chat] Anthony: it’s been tough getting past the ‘everybody’s an expert’ syndrome, e.g. clients who only want to do it ‘their way’
[00:18:52 – chat] Mary Rose: Preach it, Kevin!!
[00:18:56 – chat] Barbara: From Jody’s comments, aren’t we talking about retainer clients. I work with other clients who come back at the same time each year. Great gigs when you can get them especially if you’re allowed to see things through from concept to implmentation and analysis.
[00:19:21 – chat] Mark: I’d need major backend
[00:19:38 – chat] Rory: I would NEVER be able to duplicate–with one-off research– the real-time depth of knowledge of my product and market that I have as an in-house copywriter.
[00:19:56 – chat] Mark: Profit sharing is where it’s at. I want to be a partner, not a hired copywriter
[00:19:56 – chat] Rory: Plus dental insurance!
[00:19:57 – chat] Cyndee: yes Rory…that’s the benefit….
[00:19:58 – chat] Craig: I want to bring people on but you gotta move to LA 🙂 Our office kicks ass and our top in-house writers make more than most freelancers
[00:20:01 – chat] Jeremy: I only want to write for certain aspects of the sales process (i.e. pre-selling and advertising the offer) rather than be responsible for the entirety of the offer. Am I alone in that?
[00:20:12 – chat] Russell: doing your due diligence for the copy is also going to exemplify if the relationship is going to work. There has to be this period of time.
[00:20:29 – chat] Damon: i have retainer clients and act as a marketing consultant with a copywriting speciality…it works really well
[00:20:38 – chat] Russell: all employees / contractors / everyone goes through the courting period
[00:21:01 – chat] Dan F.: You have to know the publishers, the gurus, the products, the main traffic channels. Intimately.
[00:21:13 – chat] Dave: Great comment Mark
[00:21:26 – chat] bob: As a marketing consultant/copywriter now… I work on a contract “plus” basis with my clients so I know I am accountable, and also that I have a long term gig. The idea of being an employee seems a bit unncessary.
[00:21:27 – chat] Gerald: word up
[00:21:30 – chat] Russell: Amen Brian
[00:21:34 – chat] Cyndee: The pressure is on us to do exactly that
[00:21:38 – chat] David: Agree with you Russell. Just finishing up a 3 month “trial” period. Went very well and talking about “full-time” in a niche I love
[00:21:38 – chat] Angie Colee: Craig – blast! I have a house up here. Would jump at it in a heartbeat.
[00:21:40 – chat] Amy: I was a corporate internet sales and marketing rep before I became a copywriter. I believe my background is neccessary.
[00:21:42 – chat] Kim: Brian I don’t agree with you that copywriters should become experts on lists, etc.
[00:22:02 – chat] Brian: Yes, great points – and would also want to learn best traffic sources
[00:22:59 – chat] Gerald: if it’s a 40/40/20 split then why wouldn’t you pay attention to the 40/40?
[00:23:12 – chat] Kathi: Brian I totally agree on lists.
[00:23:15 – chat] Kim: A good copywriter needs to do a deep dive on a company’s product, customers, know which lists they mail, etc.
[00:23:16 – chat] bob: How can you write relevant copy without knowintg about the list profile?
[00:23:16 – chat] Cyndee: Roy Furr is one who stays on top of all of it
[00:23:27 – chat] Cyndee: AGreed Bob
[00:23:29 – chat] Kathi: Because the list they come from shows you the dialogue they have been responding to
[00:23:31 – chat] Brian: Knowing about the list (and its history) is a big key that you’ll need to tailor your copy to
[00:23:36 – chat] Kim: It did sound like you were saying please train me to be a list person
[00:23:44 – chat] steven: just got here. did I miss alot?
[00:23:53 – chat] Mark: Copywriters NEED to be experts on driving traffic… or at the VERY least… understand it. And with content being just as important to converting… as copy… copywriters need to step up and stay ahead of the curve. Without those awarenesses, you’re much less likely to convert for a company
[00:23:56 – chat] Cyndee: yes Steven
[00:24:16 – chat] Jonathan: The qualifying process you put your prospect through either creates a client working relationship (retainer) or just another job then on to the next job. KEY: ASK Questions. Check out their background and get them in on referral. This relationship is more of a valued consulting relationship.
[00:24:27 – chat] David: Agree with you Mark
[00:24:31 – chat] Jeremy: Mark – that’s the part I like – driving the traffic.
[00:24:34 – chat] Kim: Abby you rock!
[00:24:36 – chat] Kevin Rogers: Russell I’ll bring you on next
[00:25:16 – chat] steven: Thanks cyndee. lol..
[00:25:28 – chat] Cyndee: :-p
[00:25:38 – chat] Dave: Sounds like the takeaway here is be your own client first
[00:26:28 – chat] Kevin Rogers: Thanks Jody!
[00:26:54 – chat] Gerald: < — Pareto principle
[00:27:41 – chat] Kim: Completely agree Brian–the top DR companies have always recognized the importance of working with the best copywriters and creating win/win arrangements.
[00:27:47 – chat] Henry: In an online world where the fastest way to scale a promo is in the ad networks, is “the list” still relevant?
[00:27:55 – chat] Mark: Copywriters are playing Project Manager more and more. And it definitely takes away from the creative time. But it’s a necessary evil.
[00:28:33 – chat] Cyndee: Agree Mark
[00:28:35 – chat] Dean: I can see myself as that Mark…. some clients I work with don’t have any idea
[00:28:44 – chat] Richard: I’m willing to speak candidly about the (disturbing) changes that have taken place in my career over the past 20 years.
[00:28:51 – chat] Amy: “The illiterate of the 21st Century are not those who can’t read or write, but those who can’t learn, unlearn, and re-learn.” Or choose not to learn….
[00:29:07 – chat] Cyndee: well said Amy
[00:29:11 – chat] Mary Rose: Nice quote, Amy
[00:29:14 – chat] Barbara: Brian, I agree that lists (and segmentation) are crucial to creating good copy. I’ve found that researching the way a journalist would helps bring depth. Recently I had a client tell me that I did “too much” research because I identified shortfalls. Isn’t that a good thing?
[00:30:00 – chat] Michele: Hi, I worked with Brian at Boardroom for 20 years- — it is crucial to really know the audience and how they respond!!
[00:30:06 – chat] Danavir: I absolutetly love marketing. Probably moreso than copywriting itself. Freelance serves as a way to earn money on the side, but I’m much better off building the business I am now. The thing with freelancers in generalists that they try to stay away from employers, but not fit to be business owners
[00:30:10 – chat] Kim: Clients need a longer term view of their relationships with copywriters vs. the “one and done”. Interestingly, two of my biggest early successes were with clients for whom the first promo I wrote didn’t beat the control–but they gave me a second try on it and that second time I did beat it.
[00:30:12 – chat] Amy: Abby, does your perspective limit yourself?
[00:30:33 – chat] David: Hi Michele (AWAI)
[00:30:39 – chat] Jeremy: I agree with Danavir
[00:30:58 – chat] Craig: That’s also a tough part of paying royalties to a freelancer… so much more of it these days is about the media buying and split-testing team. Writer is super valuable however it’s often the team that takes the writing afterwards and turns it from break-even to a big winner. This can be better for in
[00:30:59 – chat] Kim: The short term view benefits no one. My second try with Boardroom I beat a 7 year control and became the first female copywriter to get a BR control
[00:31:13 – chat] Mark: If you don’t understand the business side of a market, it changes how you’ll positioning on offer or promo. So while it’s not necessarily fun to work on the business side of things, it’s a BIG part of the creative process
[00:31:21 – chat] Kim: My second try with KCI’s Personal Finance I beat Jim Rutz and did it again 3 years later
[00:31:47 – chat] Angie Colee: *high fives Kim* keep kicking ass, madame
[00:31:50 – chat] Russell: whoa
[00:32:02 – chat] Kim: Am wondering how many companies want to hire in house copywriters because they think they’ll get better copy, vs. want to reduce their overall costs for creative
[00:32:11 – chat] Russell: alright back
[00:32:20 – chat] Abbey: I agree Mark, which is exactly why I liked having a full-time client so that the market/product knowledge was more innate, not a process every time
[00:32:23 – chat] Jeffrey: Expanding your knowledge base can only make you more valuable… I think.
[00:32:52 – chat] Abbey: AGREED!!
[00:33:13 – chat] Mark: Here’s a question:
[00:33:16 – chat] Kim: THe examples I’m giving are from 12+ years ago, just trying to make a point. Companies today, especially newer online businesses, don’t seem to get the value of partnering with a good copywriter and creating winwin arrangements
[00:33:16 – chat] Abbey: Plus, many clients will pay for training.
[00:33:35 – chat] Abbey: Craig — YES!
[00:33:40 – chat] Mark: Why would ANY copywriter NOT want to bring a campaign to the finish line… if the company or client is willing to keep sending traffic to the offer?
[00:34:04 – chat] Kim: And you get the value of a freelancer who works with other companies in your industry and brings different angles and perspective you’re justnot going to get in house
[00:34:38 – chat] Jonathan: Psssst… there’s 7 billion people in the world and copywriting works in other places besides America. Having clients in several countries and several markets.
[00:34:40 – chat] Jeffrey: Just gotta watch the non-competes, Kim! ;o)
[00:34:54 – chat] David: Always have to ask for it Brian
[00:35:18 – chat] Mark: The days of a single swing of the bat are over.
[00:35:18 – chat] Dean: Best Statement Ever – Jonathan
[00:35:58 – chat] Kim: Jeffrey I don’t ever sign a non compete
[00:36:04 – chat] Christy: Some companies don’t want to give you results from your campaign, even if they’re not paying out royalties.
[00:36:16 – chat] Tony : I seldom receive a piece of direct mail from info marketers like Eben. Why is that?
[00:36:23 – chat] David: I haven’t met most clients face-to-face
[00:36:35 – chat] Dave: what Kim said!!!
[00:36:45 – chat] Kim: Confidentiality, yes–non-compete, no
[00:36:52 – chat] Christy: I don’t sign non-competes either.
[00:37:02 – chat] Jeffrey: Excellent point Kim!
[00:37:44 – chat] Michele: Some of the best controls at BR were from the copywriter going back out again trying to beat his/her control., with all the knowledge we shared with them.
[00:37:55 – chat] Zac: I guess I’m lucky. I get to write the copy, then manage the test, track, tweak, and create winners.
[00:38:51 – chat] Brian Kurtz: Tony: Direct mail is forgotten by many online marketers…and the opporutnities on the back end are still enourmous
[00:38:58 – chat] Kim: Thank you Angie Colee just saw your comment!
[00:38:59 – chat] Angie Colee: Great input from Craig.
[00:39:21 – chat] Jonathan: If you as a freelancer do not act and become a partner in the process, you are missing out. We expect complete involvement. Confidentiality is vital to successful relationships. We have proof of this for over 30 years.
[00:39:21 – chat] Angie Colee: Kim – always love hearing from other lady copywriters. Helps me keep me inspired.
[00:39:22 – chat] Christy: Michele – it’s really helpful when marketers are willing to share info like that so that the copywriter can come back and do even better work.
[00:39:34 – chat] Anthony: Agree with Craig’s immersion comments, MUCH more effective to get good fast
[00:40:24 – chat] Barbara: The concept of only writing copy and not being involved with strategy (offers, premiums, etc.) is foreign to me. Is that truly how most client-siders work? Seems more beneficial to me to have input/feedback from the copywriter too.
[00:40:24 – chat] Dan: Want me to tell you about a cool deal that was just pitched to me?
[00:40:44 – chat] steven: Is this a good place to learn for someone learning copy for their client’s website, as a marketer?
[00:40:49 – chat] Rory: Kevin–Love to join you. Give me 5 mins.
[00:40:59 – chat] Kim: Kevin I’ll get on if you like
[00:41:24 – chat] Dean: Steven…yes, absolutely
[00:41:25 – chat] Casey: Before I jumped into the freelance world, I worked as an SEO marketer for for 2 years. They became my first client as a freelancer when I left the full time gig with them.
[00:41:43 – chat] Casey: I learned so many things I wouldn’t have learned had I not been a part of helping that business grow.
[00:41:48 – chat] Max!: Yes Dan
[00:42:04 – chat] Jeremy: Maybe I’m not even a real copywriter… I create sales packages, and presale promos/email promos for offers, but none of this from scratch stuff that it sounds like all of you do.
[00:42:06 – chat] Dave: Yes Dan!!
[00:42:15 – chat] Dean: Immersion with a client in the growth of the business is very fulfilling, on many levels
[00:42:44 – chat] Russell: Sorry not sure what’s going on
[00:43:18 – chat] Angie Colee: Jeremy – there are so many skillsets and opportunities out there. That doesn’t make you NOT a “real” copywriter.
[00:43:19 – chat] Kim: Brian I disagree that controls only last 6 months on average!!!
[00:43:39 – chat] Jody: Great idea, Brian. An elegant solution to incentivising further growth.
[00:43:51 – chat] Kim: Another reason why paying more for a GOOD copywriter is so worthwhile–you get a control you can mail or use online for years
[00:44:09 – chat] Dave: KIM 🙂
[00:44:11 – chat] Kim: What the heck is a graduated royalty
[00:44:17 – chat] Max!: Hey, i have a question. I’m sure there is a thread about this in CC, so I’ll look it up later. I have someone I want to work with, and that I can immmediately start making sales off their membership product… However, it’s for a startup and they can’t afford my rates outright.
[00:44:23 – chat] Dean: In discussions now with a client to move away from pay-per-project to profit for performance model…but have yet to figure out how to structure it. The client’s not sure how to structure it and neither am I
[00:44:38 – chat] Max!: In this conversation, maybe there’s a way to approach situations like that with the nw model we’re proposing.
[00:44:45 – chat] Kim: Ok, so you have a promo that works and now you want to what, LOWer the royalty payment? why the issues with royalties?
[00:44:48 – chat] Russell: alright restarted, ill try again if there is time
[00:44:58 – chat] Kim: ok , going up is good
[00:45:12 – chat] Kim: how do I join in?
[00:45:16 – chat] Max!: haha
[00:45:17 – chat] Amy: Hey Dan!
[00:45:20 – chat] Russell: Dan !!! Sweet
[00:45:50 – chat] Russell: I think the app share is killing the browser Ross
[00:46:05 – chat] Gerald: < —
[00:46:32 – chat] Jeremy: sounds like me
[00:46:45 – chat] Lauren: Dan the man!
[00:46:56 – chat] Keita: Ha!
[00:46:59 – chat] Dave: Beotch haha
[00:47:37 – chat] Jonathan: There are graduated scaled royalties(always scale up) and bonus payouts.
[00:48:10 – chat] Kim: If you mail or use my copy online and you’re paying me regular 4-figure+ royalty checks, there is no way I am going to disappear on you when you need a headline or offer test when the control starts to fatigue, and any other good copywriter would do the same
[00:48:11 – chat] Jeremy: this. is. what. I want to do.
[00:48:48 – chat] Kim: Dan you are breaking up on the audio!
[00:48:57 – chat] Jeremy: Dude, if you figure out how to sell THAT to people
[00:49:26 – chat] Russell: kevin, my sis Julia should be good to go
[00:49:47 – chat] Julia: Hey- I’m Russell’s Sister and biz partner. His computer is dying… I can jump on for us and give our 2 cents.
[00:49:48 – chat] Amy: Now all we need is Ben Settle’s input. But we already know what that would be…
[00:49:58 – chat] Kim: For some of us, keeping that creative edge means constantly working on new things and taking a fresh perspective vs. writing for the same company/product OR for your own product
[00:50:01 – chat] Jeffrey: Speaking as a “beeotch” I only get a bonus… no royalties.
[00:50:45 – chat] Amy: Again, are you an entrepreneur or an employee? Stick to who you are and you serve the client best.
[00:50:59 – chat] April: Hey Rory! 🙂
[00:51:07 – chat] Barbara: In the B2B world, the concept of royalties is foreign. While I prefer long term relationships with clients, how do you fairly monetize without a back-end upside? Looking for win/win for both.
[00:51:23 – chat] Keita: The tightrope walker needs the challenge of walking that rope to feel the most focused and alive. Perhaps that paradigm is the same for many freelancer. (Just guessing).
[00:51:36 – chat] Kim: Max regarding your question–if you really believe in their product and the opportunity to grow their business this sounds like an ideal copy for equity arrangement, assuming you still keep money coming in from other clients/sources
[00:51:43 – chat] Dean: Hey Rory
[00:51:54 – chat] Dean: Do we have replay for this session?
[00:52:09 – chat] Jonathan: Barbara – That assumption is not true. We have been paying out and receiving royalties or over 30 years in B2B.
[00:53:04 – chat] Max!: Kim that’s what I’m thinking. They’re valued as a near 8-figure company as is, which is promising. I’ve just never dealt with Silicon Valley money and startups before, so navigating that world is foreign so far
[00:53:49 – chat] Max!: It’s refreshing to hear you say that and validates possible next steps. Have you ever done this before?
[00:55:06 – chat] Jonathan: Getting the big bucks requires knowledge. Being the marketing consultant providing guidance and involvement at every level of the professional relationship.
[00:55:15 – chat] Angie Colee: Oh Max! you and I need to chat 🙂
[00:55:46 – chat] Angie Colee: Always happy to give snoochie boochie some Silicon Valley insight
[00:55:50 – chat] Jody: Max – I completed some work for a start-up last year. It was my biggest project so far. Just because it’s a start-up doesn’t mean it’s not well funded.
[00:56:06 – chat] Lauren: When I approachstartups I take the marketing consultant coach
[00:56:19 – chat] Max!: Really? Thank you that’d be fly Angie. Also, we’re overdue for a Getting-to-Know-You session
[00:56:24 – chat] Mary Rose: So there are two challenges. 1) the biz owner needs someone to get up to speed fast but 2) it takes time to get up to speed. It would seem that the owners are on the hook, then for giving the writer time to learn.
[00:56:45 – chat] Kim: Max I am in a similar arrangement right now–I think maybe a combo of retainer agreement with equity could work well in your situation. Just have an attorney review everything
[00:56:46 – chat] Kathi: The other side of the coin when immersing yourself in a business and doing your best work, sometimes in-house writers can get sucked into the what works vortex and lose the ability to hit major home runs
[00:56:54 – chat] Lauren: approach just because many times they don’t know what a copy writer is or does
[00:57:02 – chat] Craig: that has happened to me Kathi
[00:57:10 – chat] Angie Colee: SV is where I work Max! If I can’t answer your question, I can introduce you to someone who can 🙂
[00:57:32 – chat] Barbara: Jonathan, lost the connection & prior comments. Oy! In 20 years freelancing and 15 as a publisher, B2B companies didn’t and don’t offer royalties. Perhaps it’s the size of organizations? I’m all for deep-dive and being an intregal part of the team when I write, so how do you structure pay-for-play?
[00:57:33 – chat] Max!: What if there was a platform where a businesses market deatails were on display. Writers could learn and orientate themselves around the brand and offer their services if they resonate with it
[00:57:40 – chat] Dean: Wow!
[00:57:44 – chat] Angie Colee: That’s happened to me too Kathi – particularly when it comes to winning over allies in other departments
[00:57:49 – chat] Kim: Kathi–you are right about teh “what works” vortex and the difficulty of selling a different or fresh approach
[00:57:59 – chat] Angie Colee: They know “what works” and I’m always tossing out stuff that makes them super nervous
[00:58:01 – chat] Kathi: Craig: One of my biggest winners over 300% increase in response was for AOL (way back when) b/c I “didn’t know what worked” for them and I did what I THOUGHT would work. They had a million reasons why it would bomb…. but it was a huge home run.
[00:58:16 – chat] Max!: Oh wow I can’t keep up with this conversation
[00:58:19 – chat] Craig: haha awesome
[00:58:25 – chat] Max!: So much happening in this thread and hangout haha
[00:58:28 – chat] Max!: LOVE IT!
[00:58:31 – chat] Amy: Bring It! Rory
[00:58:51 – chat] Michele: yeah Kathi! Our best controls were when we gave all the research, history, bombs and winners to the copywriter and then LET THEM FLY.
[00:58:57 – chat] Russell: research + testing. not sure why there is an expectation of hitting it outa the park right away
[00:59:04 – chat] Abbey: But at the same time, I think you’d agree Kim, you have a responsibility to your craft (even in-house) to study other industries and stay fresh.
[00:59:06 – chat] Craig: I wrote in the men’s dating niche for so long I started to get worse at it lol
[00:59:08 – chat] Kim: Michele couldn’t agree more!
[00:59:12 – chat] Russell: we are constantly tweaking a sentence here
[00:59:17 – chat] Dave: Yeah thats what copywriters need Michele….
[00:59:19 – chat] Mary Rose: A system needs to be in place to onboard copywriters quickly.
[00:59:20 – chat] Kim: craig–at writing or dating? lol
[00:59:20 – chat] Russell: sentence there
[00:59:21 – chat] Angie Colee: LOL Craig
[00:59:25 – chat] Russell: getting more lift
[00:59:26 – chat] Dave: good for you!!
[00:59:28 – chat] Craig: haha… both!
[00:59:32 – chat] Dean: A lot is predicated on the motivation and the goal of the writer in terms of model and structure
[00:59:42 – chat] Max!: That’s right you are out there. I used to be too. Except I worked in it as an employee, and never making the deals. The imaginary money part of valuations confuses me
[00:59:51 – chat] Kathi: Agree Abbey you need to stay fresh. But sometimes when you’re in house a lot of the parts of the machine don’t let the newer ideas fly.
[01:00:03 – chat] Dan F.: It takes a lot of research to get to know a mass market customer
[01:00:05 – chat] Dan F.: Months
[01:00:06 – chat] Dean: Money, lifestyle, goals, time-freedom…all very personal
[01:00:18 – chat] Julia: We have a thought on a different working model.
[01:00:18 – chat] Max!: haha Craig that’s my fear. Losing consistency
[01:00:20 – chat] Kim: Abbey yes I agree–look outside your “niche” and steal smart
[01:00:28 – chat] Darren: “Copy is a research job” – Mike Palmer
[01:00:43 – chat] Julia: from a biz standpoint, going the other direction in royalties.
[01:00:52 – chat] Craig: our writers get extra paid vacations when they write a big winner
[01:01:08 – chat] Max!: Lsoing consitency on soemthing I don’t control strategically. I won’t lose control in my own business, but I can’t dictate what my employer/partner does with their business
[01:01:11 – chat] Jonathan: Barbara – Upfront recommend asking better qualifying questions. Setting up your process is vital as the consultant/copywriter. Larger client companies with higher revenues are much easier candidates that pay royalties best.
[01:01:40 – chat] Lynn: I agree, Max.
[01:01:52 – chat] Michele: Outside research is crucial for a winning package., especially for a book that needs proof elements /exciting hooks– as long as the backup is total legitimate.
[01:01:53 – chat] Kim: Just stepped away to swap my laundry loads around. Can’t do that if you’re an in house copywriter!
[01:02:08 – chat] Julia: instead of graduated royalties, going the other way. I’d rather pay higher upfront royalties for copy that works then use it for a period of time and then lower it after 6 months or so to get them motivated to write more, better. If we get a great piece of copy, we can ride it for a long time
[01:02:11 – chat] Carlos: I am a copywriter that has been writing my own stuff for a few years now in the health and wellness industry. It would be great writting for 1-2 other marketers and immerse myself in their business. The better I know their voice and market the better the copy and better marketing campaigns would be
[01:02:15 – chat] Angie Colee: Craig, you’re tempting me to pack up and move to LA dude
[01:02:32 – chat] Carlos: as the relationship matured
[01:02:42 – chat] Jonathan: P.S. Become the go-to person for great results. The person the client calls back over and over. And dare to run a test against your own control(s).
[01:03:03 – chat] Dean: agree, Jonathan.
[01:03:10 – chat] Max!: Whenever I come acorss a problem, I treat it scientifically
[01:03:18 – chat] Max!: I ask WHY 7 times.
[01:03:21 – chat] Kim: I think if someone was fairly new to copywriting (re: Carlos’ question) working for a powerhouse DR company in a marketing or copywriting role would be a fantastic career move…then after 5 years or so you can go freelance
[01:03:34 – chat] Max!: Start with the main question being asked, and then ask WHY of it consistently
[01:03:35 – chat] Jeremy: This is actually REALLY good. I think hanging out with copywriters… I think I’m more of a marketer who’s just really really good at writing copy
[01:03:36 – chat] Dave: I think Rory wanting tow work with someone long term (even as a freelancer) is a great way to do this
[01:04:02 – chat] Russell: just align goals and then everyone wins
[01:04:05 – chat] Max!: until I get to the root… then address that topic head on… otherwise I’ll onlly be treating symptons instead of the rot
[01:04:08 – chat] Russell: as best you can
[01:04:17 – chat] Dave: and the copywriter learns about the business adn the client gets a great writer
[01:04:37 – chat] Lee: I am always in need of a good copywriter to work on numerous older packages that have performed well in the past. I am in the self-reliance and home business creation space. Lee
[01:04:37 – chat] Jeremy: I’ve tried to force myself into this “freelance” thing because I’m all I have to sell at the moment
[01:04:43 – chat] Carlos: That’s what I was thinking for my path, Kim..
[01:04:48 – chat] Max!: Yeah you too Lynn
[01:04:53 – chat] Julia: as copy declines in conversions over time, I’m not certain graduated scale is right
[01:04:57 – chat] Dan F.: I think it’s a combination of development, compensation, lifestyle, upward potential.
[01:05:10 – chat] Zac: Model: Freelancers should be willing to get on a plane, and see their client face-to-face periodically. And, they should be able to work “freely” not necessarily 9-5, but they should be given deadlines that they always meet
[01:05:16 – chat] Angie Colee: Info info info, data data data
[01:05:24 – chat] Dave: What Angie said!
[01:05:29 – chat] alix: Agreed
[01:05:31 – chat] Craig: Amen Kim
[01:05:31 – chat] Angie Colee: Data hoarding and reluctance to share has definitely hampered some of my big projects in the past
[01:05:37 – chat] Lynn: Angie – YES.
[01:05:44 – chat] Julia: from biz owners standpoint, I don’t need exclusive, but want the long term relationship.
[01:05:51 – chat] Dave: Yep data hoarding, thats a great term
[01:06:04 – chat] Lynn: Why does it have to be freelancer OR employee? Why not just long-term partnership? Their success is my success.
[01:06:09 – chat] Angie Colee: I’m kinda fascinated (and frustrated) by data hoarders
[01:06:11 – chat] Dave: you didn’t see Boardroom and Phillips worry about that with Gene and he was trading work for lists
[01:06:18 – chat] Danavir: Jeremy…. I feel the same way, except I like to say… I’m not a copywriter. I’m a businessman who knows copy.
[01:06:24 – chat] Jonathan: Brian – That was one of Gene’s secrets NOT included in his Breakthrough Advertising. This is included in my upcoming book a version 2.0 of many secrets NOT included in Breakthrough Advertising. BTW: Gene was my personal mentor back in 1983.
[01:06:42 – chat] Dave: Hey Jonathan I’d like to connect
[01:06:42 – chat] Julia: I don’t know why a biz owner would data hoard. That doesn’t sound like anyone you want to work with. only is a win win to share data.
[01:06:45 – chat] Max!: Agreed Lynn
[01:06:51 – chat] Max!: I call my “clients” partners
[01:06:56 – chat] Kim: Whoever it was that was saying why not graduated royalties that go lower over time–to me that makes absolutely no sense. If a promo is fatiguing over time, the copywriter, if being well compensated with royalties, will be motivated to write you a new headline or lead or other creative tweak for fre
[01:07:01 – chat] Kim: free
[01:07:04 – chat] Dean: Zac…i go to my client’s live events, mastermids, and coaching events… and it’s paid off in spades on all levels…demonstrates that you care…and you get to SEE how their biz works and nail the VOICE
[01:07:05 – chat] Max!: We work together for the same goals, we put the audience first to earn BIG WINS
[01:07:06 – chat] Jeremy: Danavir – yeah, I definitely think from other stuff you’ve written, we’re on the same page.
[01:07:11 – chat] Kim: because it keeps their royalties rolling in!
[01:07:17 – chat] Tony : Julia makes a good point about graduated scale cuz copy has a shelf life. At some point, the copy tires out.
[01:07:30 – chat] Russell: yes tony
[01:07:35 – chat] Max!: I put less emphasis on the money, and more on the relationship, which I know sounds less sexy, but it’s important to me
[01:07:40 – chat] Russell: it isn’t necessarily in the best interest of the writer
[01:07:40 – chat] Angie Colee: Julia – it doesn’t make sense, but there are a lot of people in business who don’t think logically.
[01:07:40 – chat] Julia: That’s what I’m thinking, Tony
[01:08:09 – chat] Amy: Humility in both client and copywriter
[01:08:11 – chat] Zac: Dean… I have the same experience. It works well for me too!
[01:08:13 – chat] Kim: There is no need for graduated royalty in my opinion–at that point you hire another writer and test all new creative AND/OR get the copywriter whose control it is to do testing
[01:08:23 – chat] Dave: Yeah Halbert and Carlton have talked before on how people just stopped mailing, got bored, etc. You’re still dealing with human irrationality (i.e. data hoarding)
[01:08:24 – chat] Julia: That way, they try for better copy and then of course there are always new offers that give them the new bump again. I’ve never heard of getting paid more over time for any deal.
[01:08:24 – chat] Jeremy: I kind of made the mistake of making an entire offer around providing a “freelance” writing service for pre-sell/advertorial – but now I’m kind of rethinking it
[01:08:34 – chat] paul: This is a BUSINESS MODLE issue not a copywriter freelance or employee issue.
[01:08:41 – chat] Henry: Amen. Ego will kill not just a promo, but a whole company
[01:09:11 – chat] Jeffrey: I have your Caddyshack book! NICE
[01:09:19 – chat] Jonathan: Dave – See Copywriters Insight on facebook.
[01:09:31 – chat] Dave: Thanks Jonathan!
[01:09:32 – chat] Barbara: Freelance pros: staying fresh with variety of products and challenges; freedom to pick and choose the people you work with; scheduling is your own. Pros in house? Stability? Benefits? How are we defining in-house?
[01:10:34 – chat] Russell: excellent point
[01:10:42 – chat] Angie Colee: Barbara – as an in-house, it’s partly my team, partly the role I’ve worked myself into (the big idea person), and partly the projects I get to work on
[01:11:05 – chat] Julia: I think most biz owners want the ‘partner’
[01:11:32 – chat] steven: Danavir did not feel compelled today.
[01:11:37 – chat] Julia: again, doesn’t need exclusive, but we want everyone to win. We are even willing to do equity with vesting. They are helping create the win
[01:11:54 – chat] Gerald: < —-
[01:12:10 – chat] Kim: Guys, it’s been real–have some deadlines to meet and thing popping up in my email like whackamole!
[01:12:20 – chat] Barbara: Yes! Every good direct response copywriter is a marketer. Totally agree.
[01:12:21 – chat] Kim: Sorry to have to leave, nice meeting you all!
[01:12:25 – chat] Dean: bye Kim!
[01:12:26 – chat] Jeremy: bye kim!
[01:12:36 – chat] Lauren: bye Kim!
[01:12:43 – chat] Carlos: bye kim
[01:12:46 – chat] Abbey: i did that!
[01:12:51 – chat] Scott: Cheers Jeffrey!
[01:12:54 – chat] Angie Colee: Lovely chatting with you Kim!
[01:13:05 – chat] Jeffrey: Hey Scott!
[01:13:13 – chat] Jonathan: We find most freelancers do NOT want to do anything but the copywriting. They make less on the work. The person that acts as the marketing consultant and a complete partner gets more . Otherwise stick with doing only the writing and accepting less.
[01:13:22 – chat] Michel Fortin: My evolution, which has been similar for many of my colleagues, is going from in-house “marketing director” to “freelancer copywriter” to going back to in-house “marketing director.” It’s like a bell curve. 😉
[01:13:25 – chat] Danavir: Steven… not sure what you mean haha.
[01:13:58 – chat] steven: Naw, I snapped you earlier…
[01:14:05 – chat] steven: heh…
[01:14:18 – chat] bob: How about viewing this as a “temp tp perm” model… or a permanent temp model?
[01:14:24 – chat] Russell: Is that a kick ass woman of marketing
[01:14:33 – chat] Russell: tell em your in sweden
[01:14:37 – chat] Tony : Hope the chat messages are available along with webinar replay. Seeing some good insights here.
[01:14:50 – chat] ANDY WILSON!: I’m wondering HOW to find these people. People who have agencies, or have a team or writers who just need more consistent writing talent.
[01:14:55 – chat] Danavir: Ah, didn’t see it lol
[01:15:11 – chat] ANDY WILSON!: Basically somebody who has their shit togeher, already have funnels together, etc.
[01:15:17 – chat] Barbara: Jonathan, your experiences are just so different than mine. Maybe I’ve just been lucky to hire copywriters who wanted to be consultants…and that’s the model I follow myself.
[01:15:18 – chat] steven: texted ya…!
[01:15:28 – chat] Danavir: Oh haha nvm.
[01:15:33 – chat] Danavir: Yea
[01:15:54 – chat] ANDY WILSON!: (AKA NOT a guy who has list/product, who wants to do a launch. Only to not actually implement ANYTHING and the project is left is shambles.
[01:16:03 – chat] steven: I’ll take it this is a good spot to learn.
[01:16:17 – chat] Jonathan: Brian – This is the process we did at Ogilvy-Mather.
[01:16:17 – chat] Max!: Here’ the question I have: Why don’t business owners want to pay the upfront investment?
[01:16:19 – chat] ANDY WILSON!: Like Brian said choosing wisely – how to do this? How to find? What are they looking for? How should I position myself for these people?
[01:16:24 – chat] paul: this same struggle happens with high end commission sales reps
[01:16:51 – chat] Shane: I wanted to give some input to the issue spoken earlier about submitting your copy and not finding out the test results. Today’s marketing is so complex with so many moving parts, it’s vital as copywriters to be able to see those tests real time and make tweaks dynamically in real time.
[01:16:52 – chat] Max!: That answer will be enlightening, and less about assumptions we are already making
[01:17:39 – chat] Zoran: What if it starts at 1%?
[01:17:50 – chat] Russell: and the time investment
[01:18:18 – chat] Jonathan: Scott – ALL good points.
[01:18:31 – question] Max!: Why that hesitation Julia? Why do you prefer the pay as you go model?
[01:18:45 – chat] Shane: We moved to a pricing model now where if a client signs up for a year, we charge a smaller monthly retainer plus a royalty payment based on sales. But we own the measurement tools to measure how and where the sales are coming from.
[01:18:49 – chat] Max!: Isn’t the nature of our work incentive based built-in already?
[01:19:27 – chat] Barbara: In the digital world, copywriting and content creation require so much more understanding of SEO and analytics. I find the challenge of using tech to help build conversion is exciting.
[01:19:49 – chat] Max!: Or am I alone in thinking of projects as a team endeavor?
[01:19:50 – chat] paul: what are in-house CW’s getting offered as pay packages
[01:21:18 – chat] Barbara: Max! the team has expanded to include back-end stuff, as long as the client allows it. So I guess that’s a pro of being in-house: access to this info.
[01:21:37 – chat] Lauren: Let’s be clear on these numbers here. What’s big up front v. back end what
[01:22:06 – chat] Russell: laren, its all math to some degree
[01:22:06 – chat] Lauren: What percentage in royalties and at what piont are they caculating it
[01:22:16 – chat] Max!: ahhh I see
[01:22:24 – chat] Jonathan: Rory – Agreed. The best copywriters are marketing consultants.
[01:22:33 – chat] Russell: every responsibility in a company has a trial period
[01:22:35 – chat] Max!: Then I guess I kinda kickec down those doors with my current clients and take it for granted
[01:22:51 – chat] Russell: average order amount X conversion X your commish
[01:23:03 – chat] Russell: the greatest leverage is conversion
[01:23:03 – chat] Max!: I jumped in and said this is what we got, this is what we want, here’s my plan to achieve it, want to change anything? Cool, let’s go!
[01:23:23 – chat] Russell: good point kevin
[01:23:41 – chat] Barbara: Curious as to how most of you approach balancing clients? One job after another and they’re (hopefully) lined up. Or two/three jobs that you work on at the same time?
[01:23:50 – chat] Max!: I can’t do my job if I dont’ ahve this info, what matters most to me is the market details who we’re reaching, what we know about them, and why they matter
[01:23:55 – chat] David: 100% agree Kevin
[01:24:03 – chat] Gerald: < —–
[01:24:06 – chat] Russell: there has to be a baseline income
[01:24:08 – chat] Russell: agreed
[01:24:11 – chat] Gerald: vv
[01:24:15 – chat] Lauren: My piont in regards to royalties is gross v. net
[01:24:24 – chat] Max!: I’ve been hearing that other copywriter’s don’t care about that, which is strange to me
[01:24:34 – chat] Barbara: Max! I agree with you. And if I’m not wrong, you’re in the DC area.
[01:24:52 – chat] Amy: In-house could not mean work on premise from 9-5 for me
[01:24:54 – chat] Russell: Loren, gross for us and I would think most
[01:25:05 – chat] Max!: DC? the district?
[01:25:12 – chat] Dean: There’s the question of list performance vs Cold traffic performance
[01:25:16 – chat] Barbara: yep or nearby
[01:26:38 – chat] Jeremy: What’s Shane’s company called?
[01:26:55 – chat] Max!: I’m in wonderful Saratoga Springs, NY.
[01:26:59 – chat] Scott: What is that behind Shane?
[01:27:07 – chat] Gerald: vv cool poster
[01:27:18 – chat] Boykie: Bolder Future Marketing I think he said …
[01:27:25 – chat] Cyndee: painted canvas…
[01:27:26 – chat] Jeremy: Thanks Boykie
[01:27:37 – chat] Angie Colee: To me, I don’t like hearing that someone got my copy and felt the need to edit. That tells me I missed some vital piece of info.
[01:28:02 – chat] Angie Colee: That’s the point where I’d rather hear that it’s needing something extra.
[01:28:25 – chat] Max!: Where are you Barbara?
[01:28:29 – chat] Angie Colee: Leak analysis = awesome.
[01:28:42 – chat] Richard: (Richard Armstrong) … I’m willing to discuss this from the senior citizen copywriter’s point of view.
[01:28:48 – chat] Barbara: I am in DC area, Max! and thought I knew you from the past. 🙂
[01:28:56 – chat] Cyndee: Hi Richard!
[01:29:12 – chat] Jonathan: Julia – Copywriters do NOT work for free. If you want to bring someone in as an in-house writer, that’s different.
[01:29:20 – chat] Donnie: Hey Richard!
[01:29:39 – chat] Donnie: I was just thinking that I need to email you, Mr. Armstrong
[01:29:42 – chat] Max!: Awww maybe
[01:29:46 – chat] Max!: I lived there 10 years ago
[01:29:51 – chat] Max!: Went to school at Howard
[01:30:04 – chat] Kathi: Hi Richard!
[01:30:12 – chat] Richard: You can email me anytime, Donnie.
[01:30:13 – chat] Max!: Absolutely Kevin!
[01:30:23 – chat] Max!: But immersion isn’t complicated
[01:30:26 – chat] Barbara: Cool, Max. We should discuss off hangout.
[01:30:32 – chat] Julia: Jonathan – the last thing I want is someone to work for free. But sharing the risk is important. I am liking the salary to start for the intro period. what do you copywriters think?
[01:30:39 – chat] Max!: ASking smart questions can help you have the little you need to know to start
[01:30:46 – chat] Max!: Then as you go, asking more questions helps you alonng
[01:30:57 – chat] Angie Colee: I think that’s a pretty smart compromise Julia.
[01:31:08 – chat] Max!: Immersion is just dipping your toe at first, and then going deeper with time.
[01:31:10 – chat] Jeffrey: Thumbs up, Julia
[01:31:17 – chat] Dave: Yeah Julia I think a salaried starting or courting period is fair….I see things from your end now since you expressed what goes on in your end
[01:31:19 – chat] Jonathan: Julia – Working with a marketing consultant who is a proficient copywriter is best.
[01:31:23 – chat] Julia: Salary to start, royalties, then maybe equity for the long term. Win win win?
[01:31:33 – chat] Jeffrey: WON!
[01:31:46 – chat] Max!: I like that Julia
[01:31:48 – chat] Lisa: As a beginning copywriter, I’ve been told my writing is strong. I would love to be given the opportunity to partner with an alternative health company and become their go-to writer. I’m easy to work with and am willing to dive deep with one client for the long haul.
[01:31:50 – chat] David: yes Julia
[01:32:07 – chat] Brian: Julia – winner!
[01:32:09 – chat] Scott: Richard (Armstrong) is not (that) old.
[01:32:20 – chat] Jeffrey: Can Lisa PM me?
[01:32:21 – chat] Max!: When I hear that people don’t want to pay I see red flags because I feel that’s a mindset at play against appreciating the value of the writer and relationship
[01:32:24 – chat] Barbara: Julia, I agree with Jonathan. Look at salary as covering the marketing cosulting/strategy and then add incenntive if and when the copy exceeds set expectations.
[01:32:26 – chat] Russell: Lisa, we will be posting a job soon on copychief
[01:32:30 – chat] Angie Colee: It’s a good risk from an owner standpoint Julia, because it’s less risk of the “take the money and run” situation. From the writer standpoint, it eases the pressure to knock it out of the park and rush the work, plus provides incentive to iterate.
[01:32:39 – chat] Max!: So as long as there’s an investment to demosntrate we value each other then I’m happy
[01:32:39 – chat] Richard: At least I’m still working. And continent.
[01:32:43 – chat] Richard: Mostly.
[01:32:44 – chat] Julia: Lisa – happy to chat. We’re definitely looking
[01:32:57 – chat] Kim: I’m back on, good to see Richard here!
[01:32:58 – chat] Lisa: Jeffery, how can I reach you?
[01:33:02 – chat] Dave: I vote Richard Armstrong for the next DoS Equis man
[01:33:03 – chat] Cyndee: continent Richard…? As in Depends…?
[01:33:07 – chat] Kim: And so glad to hear he’s still continent
[01:33:16 – chat] Aaron: Richard Armstrong … You owe me a dinner date, sir! 😉
[01:33:23 – chat] Jonathan: P.S. Julia – offer a bonus for performance on a project. If that project performs extremelt well then it can convert to a percentage royalty.
[01:33:33 – chat] Barbara: How can we connect with each other directly?
[01:33:34 – chat] Dave: Jonathan:)
[01:33:43 – chat] Angie Colee: Oh yes – bonuses will make me stay up late at night throwing any and all ideas against the wall.
[01:33:47 – chat] Jeffrey: Can I get your email Lisa?
[01:33:49 – chat] bob: Great hangout guys!
[01:33:57 – chat] Tony : If you can, please make these chat comments available with the replay.
[01:34:00 – chat] Max!: This was better than a union meeting
[01:34:04 – chat] Lisa: Russell, thank you…the only thing is that I like working remotely. Will that work?
[01:34:05 – chat] Julia: are bonuses better than royalties for you guys or do you mean both?
[01:34:09 – chat] Kevin Rogers: I will Tony
[01:34:19 – chat] Julia: Lisa – we’re all remote 🙂
[01:34:27 – chat] Max!: Do you think other industries are working together at all ends like we are? I wish that they would
[01:34:27 – chat] Russell: of course
[01:34:28 – chat] Dave: I think both Julia
[01:34:29 – chat] Barbara: Julia — both makes sense. Shared risk and reward that way.
[01:34:38 – chat] Julia: sounds right. I like that idea
[01:34:40 – chat] Lisa: Jeffrey, it’s
[01:34:40 – chat] Jonathan: Julia – a bonus based upon performance is a trial with a new copywriter you are dealing with.
[01:34:52 – chat] Richard: This thing keeps bouncing me off.
[01:35:08 – chat] Jeffrey: I gotchu Lisa!
[01:35:31 – chat] Tony : Julia: What niche are you in?
[01:35:49 – chat] Julia: Tony – Supplements – nootropics
[01:36:03 – chat] Lisa: Jeffery, looking forward to hearing from you!!
[01:36:09 – chat] Drew: Julia, what’s your company’s name? Thx!
[01:36:18 – chat] Jody: I’d love to visit my clients. USA!
[01:36:20 – chat] Julia: Simple Smart Science
[01:36:21 – chat] Jonathan: ADMIN: Too many people in queue is making the audio and video hesitate.
[01:36:23 – chat] Angie Colee: I’d rather talk about what I’m hoping to earn and why.
[01:36:28 – chat] Max!: I like that question Brian
[01:36:39 – chat] Julia: Angie – how much are you hoping to earn?
[01:36:47 – chat] ANDY WILSON!: I know there are lot of people in here (Julia, Lisa) that are looking for writers to test, or add to their team. Reach out to me, at I’ve written some winners, and am pretty versatile and willing to learn.
[01:36:49 – chat] Drew: Thanks 🙂
[01:37:37 – chat] Angie Colee: Julia – it depends on a variety of factors. I know what I’d like to earn for my next in-house gig. Is that what you’re asking?
[01:37:56 – chat] Anthony: I wouldn’t answer a question about ‘how much did you make’, but would propose ‘here’s what I need to stay focused on your project for the intro period AND support myself’…
[01:38:09 – chat] Max!: haha
[01:38:26 – chat] bob: Hey Dan! Any BASEBALLS on the table?
[01:38:30 – chat] Angie Colee: Dead moose on the table reminds me of the dead horse in Animal House LOL
[01:38:33 – chat] Barbara: Anthony, good way to put it.
[01:38:35 – chat] Julia: Yep. Just want to get some expectations 🙂
[01:38:53 – chat] Angie Colee: Juila – if you want to email me at, I’ll happily provide some insight.
[01:38:59 – chat] Julia: Thanks, Angie
[01:39:00 – chat] Lisa: Julia, how can I reach out to you?
[01:39:07 – chat] Angie Colee: My perspective will be slightly skewed due to living in the SF bay area LOL
[01:39:25 – chat] Richard: It’s one hand.
[01:39:26 – chat] Barbara: Julia, also happy to share insights with you.
[01:39:47 – chat] Max!: SF does that to you. My time there alretered my view on reality
[01:40:09 – chat] Dave: I’m a digital nomad and have other things going on so I would take a chance with a client or two ’cause I can survive a grace period to take a chance to hit a home run
[01:40:17 – chat] Amy: I am a Health and Fitness copywriter-marketer with a corporate sales and marketing background. I am passionate about supplements. I am a writer with a “whole” approach.
[01:40:23 – chat] Julia: Thanks, guys! Russ and I so look forward to speaking with you! I’m at for anyone that wants to play!
[01:40:35 – chat] Jeffrey: Max from the corner of Height and Ashbury!
[01:40:35 – chat] Angie Colee: Max! it’s pretty damn ridiculous here. But my career is kinda proof that it’s definitely more than doable. If I can build a career from scratch in the most expensive metro area in the country, anyone with dedication and guts can do it.
[01:41:07 – chat] paul: Employers should expect they need to attract juniors and train them. You can’t per-trained it all in one package.
[01:41:22 – chat] Dave: Yay Angie! You rock!
[01:41:36 – chat] Jody: If anyone looking to hire copywriters want an insight into what they should ask us when hiring drop me a line
[01:41:51 – chat] Kim: I think a person who starts their own company is generally a different animal than a freelance copywriter. Although there are some with the marketing and business chops who can do really well
[01:42:25 – chat] Cyndee: AGREED
[01:43:10 – chat] Angie Colee: Same here – I’m open to any and all questions about 1) hiring copywriters/motivations for performance and 2) taking the next step in your career (up and comers)
[01:43:20 – chat] Zoran: Shouldn’t copywriters find people they can partner with to offer the complete package as a duo/trio/agency?
[01:43:39 – chat] Barbara: Kudos to Brian and Kevin for starting this discussion.
[01:43:44 – chat] Max!: Oh yeah? I’m not that familiar
[01:43:55 – chat] Russell: yes yes yes
[01:43:55 – chat] Angie Colee: Zoran – my own agency is my ultimate goal. But that’s just because I know an incredibly talented group of creatives I’d love to work with for like…EVER
[01:44:03 – chat] Max!: I used to work at Google, but was based in NY. Though I visited SF for work
[01:44:17 – chat] Dave: Yeah I think Rory has espoused a good model….the grace /honeymoon project….period…..then go further
[01:44:30 – chat] Max!: Everytime I did I was like damn, why is everything so expense. Send me back to the City where it’s affordable
[01:44:32 – chat] Zoran: Sounds great Angie.
[01:44:56 – chat] Russell: thats exactly it Brian
[01:45:00 – chat] Max!: Grr I cannot type today
[01:45:15 – chat] Dean: Jody…just emailed you
[01:45:35 – chat] Barbara: Equity is a wonderful concept, but often that’s really “write on spec for me,” from some.
[01:45:44 – chat] Max!: That’s Marketing 101, everythign you invest in may not pan out
[01:46:01 – chat] Max!: You have to be comfortable in earning $0 from any investment you make
[01:46:07 – chat] Zoran: Sounds like the model existant in early stage (bootstrapped) startups. It’s really risk. I burned myself there 3 times already and it didn’t depend purely on my skills.
[01:46:14 – chat] Jonathan: Barbara – Equity is NOT spec work.
[01:46:51 – chat] Jody: Cheers Dean
[01:47:10 – chat] Barbara: I agreed equity should NOT be spec work. I always try for a blend in those cases. Some flat fee upfront with potential equity on the back end.
[01:47:31 – chat] Kim: My takeaway: I don’t think one model works for all companies/copywriters
[01:47:40 – chat] Cezary : In a salary position, reliability is no longer a “gift”, it’s a demand. So it can hurt the relationship. (Because trust becomes a contract).
[01:48:00 – chat] Jeffrey: Nailed it Kima
[01:48:05 – chat] Jeffrey: *Kim
[01:48:06 – chat] Casey: I’m only 8 months into freelancing as a copywriter writing sales letters, advertorials, emails, and landing pages. But I’ve been a marketer since 2006, as a concert promoter and SEO marketer. If someone is looking for an alternative health copywriter, who’s humble, and hungry to learn, I’m your man
[01:48:06 – chat] Anthony: Same here, Barbara… flat fee up front plus sharing in the back-end success
[01:48:26 – chat] Dave: Great webinar…thanks Brian and Kevin….I have to run….for those I didn’t get back to yet! Sorry…
[01:48:32 – chat] Max!: Love that Casey
[01:48:38 – chat] Max!: I’m in your boat too
[01:48:40 – chat] Angie Colee: I echo Cezary – stability is extremely attractive. That’s why I love the idea of this LTR model.
[01:48:42 – chat] Casey: Thanks Max
[01:48:55 – chat] Russell: Its been an honor to be here today. very cool
[01:49:08 – chat] Max!: Barely been a year, and really the past 3 months where I’m focused on email copywriting for women leaders with women audiences
[01:49:19 – chat] Lauren: I’m on a lower fee upfront and then royalties depending ont he company
[01:49:24 – chat] Max!: Testing it out for now, but I think I feel happiest here so far
[01:49:44 – chat] Kim: I would love if all the alternative health copywriters who’ve identified themselves here could somehow provide their info to Brian/Kevin for those of us who want to get in touch with them later
[01:50:01 – chat] Russell: yes kim
[01:50:01 – chat] Jeffrey: Yeah… what Kim said!
[01:50:17 – chat] Jody: Sounds like Copy Chief is for copywriters and marketers
[01:50:26 – chat] Angie Colee: LOL Jody
[01:50:28 – chat] Casey: lol you guys can reach me at
[01:50:29 – chat] Barbara: Brian, you know where my background’s taking me: how to harness this and help copywriters at all levels.
[01:50:31 – chat] Max!: It is Jody, it’s why I love the COpyChief model
[01:50:37 – chat] Cyndee: I’m in alternative health, my email is But Kevin has all our info right?
[01:50:40 – chat] Max!: I like that Kevin does all this heavylifting for us
[01:50:52 – chat] Max!: so when we do meet, it’s seamless and we can focus on the work
[01:51:14 – chat] Cyndee: agreed Jody
[01:51:20 – chat] Lauren: I got a conractor gig as a copywriter on staff for a virtual copy through copychief so it worked for me
[01:51:28 – chat] Cezary : Freelancing copywriters don’t have a decent retirement plan. (my guess).
[01:51:30 – chat] Kim: I will be there next week!
[01:51:41 – chat] Kim: Glad Parris will be there too
[01:51:43 – chat] Jonathan: Brian – “X” is part o a conversation but not a guarantee for freelancers to take a full time position.
[01:51:53 – chat] Lisa: Kim, you can reach me at
[01:52:10 – chat] Abbey: always in the shower
[01:52:13 – chat] Jody: I don’t shower for less than $20,000
[01:52:16 – chat] Cyndee: Oh good Kim. Me too. Look forward to meeting you.
[01:52:17 – chat] Russell: copychief is the place
[01:52:28 – chat] Jeffrey: Pounds or dollars, Jody?!
[01:52:31 – chat] Jody: Maybe this is more like Grindr than
[01:52:40 – chat] Jeremy: lol Jody
[01:52:42 – chat] Angie Colee: Eewwww Jody
[01:52:44 – chat] John Belkewitch: Jody, lol…
[01:52:47 – chat] Max!: Someone pay Jody so he can bathe already
[01:52:59 – chat] Kim: Got 3 emails written down so far–if anyone wants my info go to
[01:53:09 – chat] Jody: Looking at the exchange rate ££, Jeffrey
[01:53:10 – chat] laura: thx so much for great discussion.
[01:53:13 – chat] Russell: sold
[01:53:15 – chat] Jeffrey: LOL!
[01:53:17 – chat] Casey: Thank you
[01:53:20 – chat] Jeremy: this was good
[01:53:21 – chat] Cyndee: Outstanding discussion…
[01:53:24 – chat] Barbara: Thanks guys!
[01:53:25 – chat] Max!: Thank you for this conversation
[01:53:29 – chat] Alan: thanks Kevin and Brian
[01:53:30 – chat] Jody: Absolutely fab discussions
[01:53:30 – chat] Casey: Well worth the time
[01:53:31 – chat] Tjark: Thank you!
[01:53:34 – chat] Jody: Thanks guys
[01:53:35 – chat] Max!: I’ll sahre my process and lessons from it so far
[01:53:35 – chat] Tim: Thanks every one! Great event!
[01:53:36 – chat] Dean: great job kev and brian…and all the chiefs! Thanks for sharing


PLUS: Get fill-in-the-blank templates that instantly establish “Know, Like, and Trust”

PLUS: Get fill-in-the-blank templates that instantly establish “Know, Like, and Trust”
PLUS: Get fill-in-the-blank templates that instantly establish “Know, Like, and Trust”
100% Secure. We Never Share Your Email

100% Secure. We Never Share Your Email

100% Secure. We Never Share Your Email